Hi all,
I have a C64 since I was 6, and when all these Civilization-like games came out (Civilization, Colonization, Master of Magic), it was sad for me that there was nothing like that for the C64. However, when programming became interesting to me, I already had a PC. A couple of years ago, I was thinking about a strategy how to paint isometric tiles in the multicolor mode and prepared some graphics for that, but I always thought that the C64 would be too slow and would not have enough memory.
However, a while ago I discovered CBM .prg studio (thanks to Arthur btw.), and a lot of C64-related web-content, and I actually started to program and test whether that would work. To make a long story short, my aim was to make a demo version where a view of the map, unit movement, city economy and research would work. I am at that point now, so I made a video of that.
You may ask - why does he make a video instead of just uploading a disk-file? It's simple - I do not know any C64 artists or musicians, and I think a demo like that should at least have some music at the start (4000 bytes available) and the best graphics.
So, if someone here watches the video and thinks that he/she can make better graphics or has some fitting music to contribute, let me know. I can provide information/specifications on that and the photoshop file I've been using. I can put your names into the credits in return if I use it.
Here is the video - try to watch it at 480p.
P.S. I won't stop working on that, but my spare time is very limited right now, so this is officially a demo, NOT a preview (Well, it's possible to play without AI)
8-bit Civilizations
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- Bionic Granny
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8-bit Civilizations
Last edited by DrKhumalo on Tue May 31, 2016 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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This is one of those triumphs of C64 spirit and unique individuals who populate its culture. I am astonished and very proud of you, @DrKhumalo! You make my day! This is amazing piece of art and craft! Beautiful!
I went through your video clip, will give it justice today when I get time. I didn't catch tech specs, I presume it's made for a stock C64 with 64 kbs and 1541 with fast loading?
I can't imagine it was possible to be done, because Civ concepts required 16 bitter with lot of ram and CPU power. Huge maps and number of objects + lot of cross-related data and stats - I guess, that demands mem+cpu intensively?
However, REU can give C64 major boost! But still - how fast can calculations, and AI, get onto 6510 running on 1Mhz?
I went through your video clip, will give it justice today when I get time. I didn't catch tech specs, I presume it's made for a stock C64 with 64 kbs and 1541 with fast loading?
I can't imagine it was possible to be done, because Civ concepts required 16 bitter with lot of ram and CPU power. Huge maps and number of objects + lot of cross-related data and stats - I guess, that demands mem+cpu intensively?
However, REU can give C64 major boost! But still - how fast can calculations, and AI, get onto 6510 running on 1Mhz?
Last edited by cybermodo on Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks ! But I guess you probably understand why I would like to have some music at the start and probably some better artwork for the larger graphics (like the Buttons) before I publish that. There seem to be a lot of good artists here that master the dithering and color-mixing very well. It would be an incomplete demo without at least some music. Also, if I'm going to extend the demo, I'd need much more larger bitmaps for other parts.
The demo runs on a stock C64 with any disc drive (tested it on my C64 with 1581), but has no fastloader right now. And I think it would be possible to have a complete program running on a stock C64 - of course it would be easier with a RAM extension, but the point is to prove that this would have worked in 1982.
Some more information to reduce confusion:
Parts that are missing now and wouldn't need memory from the main program since they could be reloaded (it would 'just' be work):
Submenu 'State' (Change tax rates and government, overview of your cities)
Submenu 'World' (Diplomacy and some world statistics)
Submenu 'Game' (Save & Load, some options)
Diplomacy screen
Special unit moves (Caravan, conquering cities, diplomats & spies, move into huts [currently main program])
Some special wonder animation/information
Parts that are missing and need to go into the main program (2.5 kb left right now):
some minor functions (counting spaceship structures, enable some wonders, more messages, etc.)
AI for unit movement
AI for city optimization
So, you can see that it might be tough to put these AI functions into 2 kb, but since I can use all the functions that are already there to help the player (like what can be done on a field and where can you move), it might work. Also, there's some potential to free some memory.
The AI for research, government and city production (partially) is there, but without unit movement and optimization, it's difficult to test. If I had more time (maybe next month), the next step would be the settler AI and City optimization AI. (Calling it AI is maybe exaggerated, it should feel like one )
The good thing about publishing a demo would be to get some feedback about bugs, because I actually never played it for a longer time, and it is possible to play it alone, but your opponents do nothing else but building defenders and some improvements, and you can't conquer cities yet.
The demo runs on a stock C64 with any disc drive (tested it on my C64 with 1581), but has no fastloader right now. And I think it would be possible to have a complete program running on a stock C64 - of course it would be easier with a RAM extension, but the point is to prove that this would have worked in 1982.
Some more information to reduce confusion:
Parts that are missing now and wouldn't need memory from the main program since they could be reloaded (it would 'just' be work):
Submenu 'State' (Change tax rates and government, overview of your cities)
Submenu 'World' (Diplomacy and some world statistics)
Submenu 'Game' (Save & Load, some options)
Diplomacy screen
Special unit moves (Caravan, conquering cities, diplomats & spies, move into huts [currently main program])
Some special wonder animation/information
Parts that are missing and need to go into the main program (2.5 kb left right now):
some minor functions (counting spaceship structures, enable some wonders, more messages, etc.)
AI for unit movement
AI for city optimization
So, you can see that it might be tough to put these AI functions into 2 kb, but since I can use all the functions that are already there to help the player (like what can be done on a field and where can you move), it might work. Also, there's some potential to free some memory.
The AI for research, government and city production (partially) is there, but without unit movement and optimization, it's difficult to test. If I had more time (maybe next month), the next step would be the settler AI and City optimization AI. (Calling it AI is maybe exaggerated, it should feel like one )
The good thing about publishing a demo would be to get some feedback about bugs, because I actually never played it for a longer time, and it is possible to play it alone, but your opponents do nothing else but building defenders and some improvements, and you can't conquer cities yet.
Last edited by DrKhumalo on Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I started on this forum with questions about Kubrick, what game would he produce? Few moments ago I was on Lemon Amiga reading about Civilization, and one user described Sid Meier as the Kubrick of computer gaming!
Well, here you are, DrKhumalo! Doing Sid's kubrickian magic on C64, where Sid started anyway. How awesome! Even sound chip has Sid's name.
This moment is truly epic!
Well, here you are, DrKhumalo! Doing Sid's kubrickian magic on C64, where Sid started anyway. How awesome! Even sound chip has Sid's name.
This moment is truly epic!
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WOW! That is amazing!
Usually when people try to tackle such big projects they stop when having some sort of map routine working (I'm thinking about the civ-map demo from Enthusi from a few years ago). But you managed to already include almost all of the underlying mechanics as well!
And I think the isometric viewpoint helps with not getting that blocky look.
I'm looking forward to seeing how far you can pull this off...
Usually when people try to tackle such big projects they stop when having some sort of map routine working (I'm thinking about the civ-map demo from Enthusi from a few years ago). But you managed to already include almost all of the underlying mechanics as well!
And I think the isometric viewpoint helps with not getting that blocky look.
I'm looking forward to seeing how far you can pull this off...
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May I suggest - if memory for AI becomes a problem, simply abandon "64Kb stock machine" rule, and spread on RAM expanded system! After all, make a cartridge based game - it's still good old C64! If we had some cool commercial cart-only games back in the days, why not today!?
Just, then, please make the best AI there is in the world!
This code should remain alive, and make it highly clean and expandable. Why not leaving opportunity for further enhancements in all directions, for various hardware add ons!? And modding!
Imagine Alpha-Centauri game on C64!
Just, then, please make the best AI there is in the world!
This code should remain alive, and make it highly clean and expandable. Why not leaving opportunity for further enhancements in all directions, for various hardware add ons!? And modding!
Imagine Alpha-Centauri game on C64!
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Paulko is referring to this:PaulKo64 wrote:Usually when people try to tackle such big projects they stop when having some sort of map routine working (I'm thinking about the civ-map demo from Enthusi from a few years ago).
https://csdb.dk/release/?id=114457&show=notes#notes
And to my defense, this was never meant as Civilization but an independent (simpler and realtime) approach. I posted it on Civ-Diskussion on F64, where people were busy discussing webpages and intros for it ;-)
I would not do Civilization as I completely lack knowledge of it (never really played it).
That being said: Paulko is all too right ;-) Coding an engine can be great fun. Turning it into a full fledged game is tedious work! So the engine I linked to is indeed a stand-alone-map engine (including a generator as well, hehe).
Back to your REAL Civilization: Wow ;-)
Unusual perspective choice. It seems to work out quite well.
A few small sound effects would still be nice, while I wouldnt miss continuous music at all. The interface looks slightly to crowded to me, then again: I think that of 99% of all PC-games - so this is possiblyt just me : )
Please continue and keep us posted.
Cheers,
Martin
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